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BigHam
old hand


Reged: 12/11/2006
Posts: 1167
Loc: Letchworth, UK
Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled!
      #26034 - 16/05/2008 10:16

Stolen shamelessly from another forum, but it does actually have a point.

Let Battle Commence

An open letter to all who care about riding their bike

The recent cancellation of the Welsh National Motorcycle Show by the committee of the Royal Welsh Agricultural Showground due to representations made by Dyfed Powys Police has not only saddened me, but has made me angry. Angry that my very way of life is facing it’s most dangerous threat ever, a threat that could end biking in this country for good. I cannot stand idly by and let this happen.

Dyfed Powys Police made representations to the committee regarding the ‘potential’ threat of violence at the show and that they could not guarantee public safety courtesy of the ongoing feud between certain Motorcycle Clubs. The organisers of the Welsh National Motorcycle Show were not invited to this meeting to refute Police Claims. They found out after the decision had been made with no chance to appeal the decision.

Both Dyfed Powys Police and the Royal Welsh Agricultural Showground committee know that the Welsh National Motorcycle Show is one of the most peaceful, well attended events in Wales. Many Bikers take their children to the event knowing their children will be in a safe environment. This is due to the reputation that the organisers of the show have worked extremely hard to maintain over the last 18 years, yet Dyfed Powys Police totally disregarded this in favour of indulging in what has now been seen in many quarters as a concerted Police campaign to close down every single bike related event in the UK.

THIS MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN!

This is a violation of our civil liberties and our way of life faces its darkest hour. If we lose this fight, we lose everything. Our events, our meeting places, our clubs that we have enjoyed being members of since Biking began. Whether you a dyed in the wool Rally Biker like myself, or you just enjoy riding your bike on sunny Sundays to one of the many peaceful meeting places around the land. This affects YOU! It affects every last one of us and if we do not make a stand now, then we are lost, consigned to history as a group who did nothing when we were trampled underfoot.

I call upon M.A.G, the B.M.F, the N.A.B.D and every single bike club in the land to unite and stop this madness, to stand up as one and defend our way of life. Write to your MP, write to the Home Office, write to anyone you think will listen and make the Powers That Be aware that we will stand tall and fight. We have succeeded before when threatened with stupid safety measures that were designed to maim and kill, we can succeed again. But we need to start NOW.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wa...55578-20914101/

For more information.

Did anyone see the state of Manchester yesterday morning? Are they now going to cancel all football events?!

/Rant

--------------------
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Where there's a will and Gaffa Tape there's a way!


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shinybusa
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Reged: 08/01/2008
Posts: 1608
Loc: away with the fairies..
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: BigHam]
      #26052 - 16/05/2008 12:34

Well said that man!!! How true is what he's saying, football related violence IS a major problem, look at Manchester!!!! Millions get's spent on Policing the football league's matches every season.

When has there ever been a Major Public Order incident at a bike show....Bulldog Bash, East of England BMF etc.....I can't remember any.

A total over reaction by Dyfed Powys Police...Wankers.
Have they considered the amount of money that would have been brought into the local economy by BIKERS and their families. I bet the local businnesses are livid with the decision........Nanny state is slowly taking over!

--------------------
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day....
Teach a man to fish.........................................and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day!!


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BigHam
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Reged: 12/11/2006
Posts: 1167
Loc: Letchworth, UK
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: shinybusa]
      #26068 - 16/05/2008 16:03

It's a knee jerk reaction to the shooting after the bulldog bash last year(which has been allowed to continue).

The welsh show isn't famed for gangs attending anyway, usually a fairly friendly show!

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/big_ham_1988
Where there's a will and Gaffa Tape there's a way!


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FastBikerBoy
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Reged: 08/11/2006
Posts: 1180
Loc: Norfolk, UK - Police State
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: BigHam]
      #26070 - 16/05/2008 17:05

Quite frankly that's a crock of fucking shit. Following that logic police forces should object to every top level football match, especially those involving Rangers

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KwH
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Reged: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1714
Loc: Carmarthen, Dyfed
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: BigHam]
      #26073 - 16/05/2008 18:45

Dyfed-Powys HQ is about a mile and a half from here. I'll pop in on Monday and ask to speak to a senior officer and make a complaint in person. Won't do any good, but will make me feel better :-(.

--------------------
Ken Haylock
http://www.cix.co.uk/~kwh

"Ride what you like, how you like, as often as you like; but always take responsibilty for your actions." - Anonymous Zen Guru

"Obviously all I'll care about is if it's good for wheelies (i.e. fluffs up my meagre skills), and what free gift they give on the launch." - Anonymous Moto-Journalism Guru




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xxrider
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/11/2006
Posts: 2267
Loc: Somewhere over the rainbow.......
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: KwH]
      #26074 - 16/05/2008 18:54

Ken,

Take a print of this forum thread. Kind of a "petition" if you like.
The more forumites can register their objection here, the more ammo Ken'll have.

Hey, and print the pages from whichever forum the original story was lifted from.

Go Ken!

--------------------
The simplest questions are the most profound. Where were you born? Where is your home? Where are you going? What are you doing? Think about these once in a while and watch your answers change.


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BigHam
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Reged: 12/11/2006
Posts: 1167
Loc: Letchworth, UK
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: xxrider]
      #26088 - 16/05/2008 20:46

It's a 2 pager:

http://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=146740

C'mon Superbike, tear them a new arse.

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/big_ham_1988
Where there's a will and Gaffa Tape there's a way!


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adowdsAdministrator
addict


Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 649
Loc: Croydon
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: BigHam]
      #26111 - 17/05/2008 11:38

Let us know how you get on then Ken! Give 'em hell!

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fastjonny
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Reged: 08/11/2006
Posts: 1026
Loc: England
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: BigHam]
      #26117 - 17/05/2008 13:38

Quote:

It's a knee jerk reaction to the shooting after the bulldog bash last year(which has been allowed to continue).

The welsh show isn't famed for gangs attending anyway, usually a fairly friendly show!




Yeah, I heard the other day that Warwickshire plod were a bit twitchy about the Bulldog Bash and were gonna oppose the license this year. Seems crazy as the plod don't police the event, the HA do. I've been going regularly to the Bash for the last 12 years and never seen any serious trouble. It's a well run event and a perfect antidote to the other 361 days of shit I have to put up with each year.

--------------------

fastjonny


www.battlebikerdropin.co.uk


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immy
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Reged: 09/11/2006
Posts: 961
Loc: Planet Zok
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: adowds]
      #26166 - 18/05/2008 19:44

Im apologise for the blatent use of this thread: I have alway been a anti football person-Aside from the the fact that the players get paid a third world budget( I was born in Malawi) and they are never worth the money( see J.Lorenzos result today) the violence, IMO, negates ANY arguement many "supporters" of the game put forward.I have made no secret of my passed career-in that time I have had 2 good friends and collegues KILLED yes Killed by the lovers of this fucking game-now see this-car battery full of acid thrown into his face-fucked all his skull bones-then when he was on the ground-they dropped it onto his head.The second-same sit rep but with a paving slab cos he got caught in the rush-just like PC Regan at the Rangers match this last weekend only 2 army peeps saved him.Ray wasnt so lucky. Each and every weekend we hear/see the results of the GAME-in the form of violence.When did Rossi fans beat the crap out of Stoner fans???
Back to the point, this decision is outrageous and I will personally make a complaint as a former Police Officer.
I have/had a good relationship with the "bikers groups" mentioned-ok I dont condone violence-but and its a big but. Where is the Police intelligence that resulted in this decision? Same as the Iraqi war? The Police know that each match will probably end in violence? even one person hurt is enough-but they cancelled this-just in case. Make all football matches in closed forums-and until then_HOW DARE YOU

--------------------
Its not fate itself that is so frightening
Its the expectation of fate that frightens


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xxrider
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/11/2006
Posts: 2267
Loc: Somewhere over the rainbow.......
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: immy]
      #26167 - 18/05/2008 19:57

Immy, you've lost mates to mindless violence and you're still hurting......

but let's have a reality check here, mate.
Football violence is nowhere near as bad as it was 20 years ago. Of course, it does get reported on more 'colourfully' by the tabloid press, and football violence does still happen, but come on - every weekend in the UK alone, there are hundreds, if not thousands of football games played in front of an audience, and you cannot tell me that it is inevitable that every one of them will end in violence.
In my time, I've been to what must be several hundred games at all levels, and only ONCE witnessed violence of a type the press would have us believe is endemic to the game.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I'm not defending it, but a little perspective is in order, I think.

--------------------
The simplest questions are the most profound. Where were you born? Where is your home? Where are you going? What are you doing? Think about these once in a while and watch your answers change.


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chappers
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 31/12/2006
Posts: 5379
Loc: Mind your own business
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: xxrider]
      #26168 - 18/05/2008 20:05

Football it self is an excuse for these mindless right wing tugs to kill each other and innocent bystanders altho I have no love for the game and agree that the players are overpaid fops. I feel for your colleagues and their families immy

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KwH
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1714
Loc: Carmarthen, Dyfed
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: adowds]
      #27655 - 10/06/2008 16:30

Quote:

Let us know how you get on then Ken! Give 'em hell!




Sorry about the delay, folks - I've been up to my ears in paperwork sorting out my end-of-year.

Right, well, I was planning on popping up to the HQ before the Builth show weekend, but everybody and his dog was protesting then so I didn't think I would get any answers. I also expected to get my point lost in the general hubbub. Instead, I waited for the dust to settle on things and nipped up there today and asked to speak to a senior officer, in the hope that more answers would be forthcoming.

I'm not sure what I expected, to be honest. One possibility I foresaw was that they would have somebody whose job was to soft-soap members of the public for a living ('Inspector so and so, Community Liaison'), and another was that they would tell me they were far too busy to talk to me and tell me to sling my hook.

Initially it was looking like option 2 might be on the cards, as they suggested, via the nice young lady at reception, that nobody was around to talk to me and that I might like to write to them.

I politely but firmly declined the offer, suggesting that no I really would like to express my concerns face to face.

At this point the back of my mind entertained the less than amusing possibility that I might in due course be arrested and carted off in handcuffs for refusing to take the 'Piss off, sonny and take your two wheeled despoiler of community tranquility with you' hint. Irrationally paranoid? Me?

Anyway, having passed said nice young lady at reception my business card when I arrived, they then decided that perhaps they might have somebody available, but they did take a very detailed interest in who I was and what my address was at that point. I can only assume that they were checking their computers to make sure that I wasn't the Carmarthen chapter of HAMC, wasn't likely to eat the officer who came down to talk to me and didn't have a rocket launcher secreted down my trouser leg. Now who is paranoid, eh? eh?

In due course, though, I was extremely pleasantly surprised when Chief Superintendent Paul Amphlett, Head of Operations emerged to talk to me. I don't know how many Chief Superintendents DP has, but I'm thinking he's pretty close to the top of the tree, in terms of the decision making process. Most people above him will presumably be faffing about with juggling the annual budget and writing mission statements.

I think he was more than a little guarded when talking to me. I'm not sure whether that was because I was dressed in leather and carrying a motorcycle helmet, or whether he just didn't like being challenged for the ten thousandth time about the whole Builth Wells show debacle. If the former it would be a little frustrating, if the latter it would be a little satisfying.

He had printed out and brought with him a copy of the original DP Police press release that they issued when they were... err... leaning on the showground committee to pull the plug on the event.

Despite my trying several times to tease him into telling me a little more about what on earth was behind the cancellation, he really wouldn't be drawn, although more than once when I hinted that it looked to me like an over-reaction that never seemed to afflict football fixtures, at which there was also significant expectation of violence between rival 'gangs', he drew my attention specifically to the phrase 'serious reservations' in the press release, which I interpreted by simple deduction to mean that DP police must have been expecting something worse than a few rival supporters smashing up a pub and knifing/bottling each other. On the other hand, when I suggested that he was raising the barely credible spectre in people's minds of the massed ranks of HAMC & The Outlaws having at each other with Mac 10s and RPG-launchers in Builth Wells high street, gutters running with the blood of innocents caught in the Helmand Provice style crossfire, he was quick to tell me not to put words in his mouth.

So I won't.

But I'm still none the wiser.

Finally, I made the point about blatant discrimination, and by way of illustration referred back to the Magna Carta debacle of a few years back where one malicious phone call from somebody associated with HAMC who wanted to stop a competing event drove the paranoid 'bikers are all murderers' nutjobs at NCIS into a frenzy and led to the event being cancelled at 24 hours notice, causing huge financial damage to MAG and the traders and inconvenience to many thousands of people.

I'm pretty sure that one phone call suggesting that there were people going to Wembley amongst the crowd for a bit of serious violent disorder wouldn't have resulted in the police cancelling the FA Cup final in response. But motorcyclists... 'the serious concerns that motorcycle events now generate' in the words of the press release. I commented that I had never previously felt like a member of an oppressed minority (not true actually - if you think being a biker full stop is bad, try being a green laner, bike or 4x4 - but that isn't anything to do with the police).

Chief Superintendent Amphlett said something to the effect that there was no reason why I should feel like an oppressed minority... "...but I can see why you might think that!". I should at that point have suggested that the 'duck' test could usefully be applied to whether I was part of an oppressed minority or not, but I'd already occupied a good ten minutes or more of his time, and he was clearly anxious to get back to whatever it is the Chief Superintendent, Operations does for a living. Which should, I hope, be more important in the grand scheme of things than talking to fat hairy bikers with a mild cob on. Unless he was just worried that his colleagues would have eaten all the doughnuts .

Any and all probes for more information were politely rebuffed with the suggestion that I should submit an FoI request. I happen to know that several people have already done this, but I also happen to know that one of the exemptions to the FoI is available to the police if they claim that to reveal information would hinder them in fighting crime or some such wording. And when I asked Chief Superintendent Amphlett why he couldn't or wouldn't be more more forthcoming voluntarily, he suggested that there was a good reason. So I don't expect that the FoI requests will come to much, unfortunately.

Transparency seems not to be the word I am looking for.

Kudos to the Chief Super for coming and having words with me at all, though. Big raspberries for not telling me (or anybody else) WTF is going on or why ordinary taxpaying citizens who happen to ride motorcycles have to suffer for the alleged intranecine violent intentions of a few patch-club psychopaths.

The only moment during our chat when his mask slipped for a moment was when I asked to make a note of his name and what his day job was so that I could spell it correctly when I put it on the internet. I think he was momentarily terrified that I was going to stitch him up or misquote him horribly. I hope I haven't done that, and if I can find his email address on the DP website, I'll forward a link to this posting to him so that he can see for himself and take issue with anything he thinks is unfair - I'll post corrections if they are warranted.

So, job jobbed, even if the outcome was a little unsatisfactory from my PoV.

Have I missed much?

--------------------
Ken Haylock
http://www.cix.co.uk/~kwh

"Ride what you like, how you like, as often as you like; but always take responsibilty for your actions." - Anonymous Zen Guru

"Obviously all I'll care about is if it's good for wheelies (i.e. fluffs up my meagre skills), and what free gift they give on the launch." - Anonymous Moto-Journalism Guru




Edited by KwH (10/06/2008 16:34)


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Billyw
enthusiast


Reged: 12/05/2007
Posts: 287
Loc: Woking Surrey
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: KwH]
      #27666 - 10/06/2008 16:47

Well done Ken , you obvously didn't at any point during your chat decide to get the pump action shot gun out of your leathers and spray some pellets round the police station.
Seriously though well done at least you went and did something positive about it unlike people like me who rant about this sort of thing and get no further.

--------------------
'Money, it turned out was like sex, you thought of nothing else if you didn't have it and thought of other things if you did'
James baldwin, 1924-1987,American writer.


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KwH
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1714
Loc: Carmarthen, Dyfed
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: Billyw]
      #27668 - 10/06/2008 16:54

Quote:

Well done Ken , you obvously didn't at any point during your chat decide to get the pump action shot gun out of your leathers and spray some pellets round the police station.
Seriously though well done at least you went and did something positive about it unlike people like me who rant about this sort of thing and get no further.




Actually, I was just casing the joint for some Assault on Precinct 13 stylee direct action next week. Nothing says 'I think your policing priorities are sub-optimal' like 2,000 rounds of 4-1 ball-tracer mix...

--------------------
Ken Haylock
http://www.cix.co.uk/~kwh

"Ride what you like, how you like, as often as you like; but always take responsibilty for your actions." - Anonymous Zen Guru

"Obviously all I'll care about is if it's good for wheelies (i.e. fluffs up my meagre skills), and what free gift they give on the launch." - Anonymous Moto-Journalism Guru




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FastBikerBoy
old hand


Reged: 08/11/2006
Posts: 1180
Loc: Norfolk, UK - Police State
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: KwH]
      #27682 - 10/06/2008 20:08

Don't know if you've ever done anytime in any of the services Ken, but what you experienced is fairly common place when 'subordinates' are looking for explanations to obviously ludicrous decisions made by their 'superiors'.

It is commonly known as 'bullshit' or 'bollocks'. Summarized it reads 'We'll do what we want, when we want, and we don't need to answer to the likes of you so fuck off'. Sums it up nicely I think.

Good on 'yer for trying though.

--------------------
FBB



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KwH
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1714
Loc: Carmarthen, Dyfed
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: FastBikerBoy]
      #27685 - 10/06/2008 20:29

Quote:

Don't know if you've ever done anytime in any of the services Ken, but what you experienced is fairly common place when 'subordinates' are looking for explanations to obviously ludicrous decisions made by their 'superiors'.

It is commonly known as 'bullshit' or 'bollocks'. Summarized it reads 'We'll do what we want, when we want, and we don't need to answer to the likes of you so fuck off'. Sums it up nicely I think.

Good on 'yer for trying though.




I was a STAB for a while, so yeah, I recognise the syndrome

To be honest, though, I wasn't actually expecting him to yell 'Allalujah, I have seen the light, I apologise for cancelling the rally and will now resign, but not before offering myself for public flogging in front of the courthouse'.

Though obviously it would have been nice .

Since this was presumably done for 'our' good (unless they really did characterise everybody on a bike as 'part of the problem') I think at some time we should be told exactly what it is we have allegedly all been saved from.

I have a horrible feeling the we never will be .

If 20,000 innocent motorcyclists have had their weekend ruined and numerous struggling businesses have been damaged or bankrupted, just to stop e.g. a handful of Angels with Baseball bats and crowbars braining a couple of Outlaws in a lay-by on the A484 thirty miles outside Builth, then I call foul. But if that is the justification, who is ever going to dare admit to it in public?

--------------------
Ken Haylock
http://www.cix.co.uk/~kwh

"Ride what you like, how you like, as often as you like; but always take responsibilty for your actions." - Anonymous Zen Guru

"Obviously all I'll care about is if it's good for wheelies (i.e. fluffs up my meagre skills), and what free gift they give on the launch." - Anonymous Moto-Journalism Guru




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FastBikerBoy
old hand


Reged: 08/11/2006
Posts: 1180
Loc: Norfolk, UK - Police State
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: KwH]
      #27687 - 10/06/2008 20:48

I think you're quite right, we'll never find out why. It's the easiest thing in the world to say "Something terrible was going to happen but we prevented it with our actions... er... no we're not going to tell you what it was, just trust us"

That is the problem, trust was lost a long while ago and while reasonless decisions like that keep being made, they ain't ever going to get it back. IMHO if it was a genuine reason (which - it's for your own good sonny - isn't) there would be no problem making it public would there, we're not living in a Mugabe type dictatorship yet are we? If it's not a good reason all the more reason for them to avoid the issue, so I've drawn my conclusion.

--------------------
FBB



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KwH
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1714
Loc: Carmarthen, Dyfed
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: FastBikerBoy]
      #27689 - 10/06/2008 21:26

Quote:

I think you're quite right, we'll never find out why. It's the easiest thing in the world to say "Something terrible was going to happen but we prevented it with our actions... er... no we're not going to tell you what it was, just trust us"

That is the problem, trust was lost a long while ago and while reasonless decisions like that keep being made, they ain't ever going to get it back. IMHO if it was a genuine reason (which - it's for your own good sonny - isn't) there would be no problem making it public would there, we're not living in a Mugabe type dictatorship yet are we? If it's not a good reason all the more reason for them to avoid the issue, so I've drawn my conclusion.




My suspicion, and that is all it can be without any evidence, and there is none of that available, is that the 'policing plan' for the Builth Wells show consisted of the usual 'deploy a few speed camera vans and rake in some money'. Because that's all they ever needed in the past - the only police presence I've personally ever seen at Builth has been the mobile cash registers on the A483. Then somebody (NCIS maybe, or that evil bike-hating tosser from up North probably) warns them that something might happen. It doesn't really matter what, it doesn't even have to have been specific. 'Intelligence says that HAMC and their affiliates will be looking to even the score with Outlaws MC and may wish to do it under the cover of a bike rally' perhaps.

In fact it probably was something as hazy as that. After all, if they had specific intelligence that Toe-cutter was going to murder the Knight Rider in the beer tent with the tyre lever then they could presumably lift the offending party or parties en route and lock them up, this averting the problem entirely.

But suddenly the risk assessment changes, and the event they hadn't budgeted anything for becomes something they need to actively police. And suddenly they find they need to find helicopter fuel, a few plain clothes plod on bikes to follow and keep tabs on any targets who might be spotted en-route, a control room team, a couple of van-loads of tooled up riot plod to wade in and sort out any unpleasantness that might kick off and maybe an ARV or two standing by in case anybody does turn up with a shooter to off the opposition, plus some undercover blokes hanging round the show keeping an eye out for any 1%er related trouble. All that, even though nothing is actually likely to happen. Over a bank holiday weekend. Think of the overtime budget!

So my guess is that they didn't want to spend the money to do what they needed to do to not get caught with their trolleys round their ankles if something did happen. So it was easier to mutter dark warnings of unspecified horrible consequences and fuck off the whole event, to the detriment of all involved than it was to do what I pay my the police precept on my council tax for them to do .

I don't know, can you REALLY see even the dumbest 1%er actually murdering somebody at a rally surrounded by 20,000 bikers without at least twenty mates armed with automatic weapons for backup? Who would stand out a bit while getting there? Police or no police, you wouldn't give them much of a chance of getting away, or better than even money of living to tell the tale, would you. And if they did get away, where the fuck would they go from Builth? There are two roads out of the place unless they want to go and live in a rabbit hole in the hills for six months until the search dies down! The whole thing makes no sense however you look at it...

--------------------
Ken Haylock
http://www.cix.co.uk/~kwh

"Ride what you like, how you like, as often as you like; but always take responsibilty for your actions." - Anonymous Zen Guru

"Obviously all I'll care about is if it's good for wheelies (i.e. fluffs up my meagre skills), and what free gift they give on the launch." - Anonymous Moto-Journalism Guru




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chappers
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 31/12/2006
Posts: 5379
Loc: Mind your own business
Re: Welsh National Motorcycle Show Cancelled! [Re: KwH]
      #27697 - 10/06/2008 22:33

Quote:

I don't know, can you REALLY see even the dumbest 1%er actually murdering somebody at a rally surrounded by 20,000 bikers without at least twenty mates armed with automatic weapons for backup? Who would stand out a bit while getting there? Police or no police, you wouldn't give them much of a chance of getting away, or better than even money of living to tell the tale, would you. And if they did get away, where the fuck would they go from Builth? There are two roads out of the place unless they want to go and live in a rabbit hole in the hills for six months until the search dies down! The whole thing makes no sense however you look at it...



Not any member of the HA they aren't that stupid if and when they take account it will probally be discrete.

I wouldn't put it beyond the Highway Hamsters (Road Rats) many of then haven't the intelligence they were born with spesh one guy Mad Dog (he was a fucking idiot)he wouldn't think twice about doing something that stupid in front of a crowd and I don't think any club would be concered with rally goers being a health hazard.
It's all a crock of shit TBH this isn't the Black Forest or Las Vegas and it's 2008 not 1962 or even 1984.


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